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The Velveteen Ocelot

(122,162 posts)
20. More than that, at some points in history the Church has been more powerful
Thu Oct 17, 2019, 05:05 PM
Oct 2019

than the rulers. When it came down to it, it was about power rather than theology, or, more accurately, employing theology to acquire power. Martin Luther was deemed a heretic because he opposed the Church's sale of indulgences - basically, paying your way into heaven. So he argued that the only way a person could get to Heaven was through faith alone (sola fides) and not through "works," that is, by donating money to the Church. But the Church didn't care so much about the theology underlying sola fides, but that if his argument caught on, the Church wouldn't be able to collect as much money. Henry VIII couldn't get the Pope to grant him a divorce from Catherine of Aragon, so he declared that the Church of England was no longer governed by the Roman Pope. But Henry didn't want the English church to change its theology - he also thought Luther was a heretic - he just wanted to do something the Pope wouldn't allow. The devastating Thirty Years War in the 17th century started out when Ferdinand II declared that everyone in what was then the Holy Roman Empire (most of central Europe) would be required to convert to Catholicism notwithstanding the Treaty of Augsburg; but this quickly devolved into a struggle for power and not over religion among the various states within the HRE.

Throughout history religion has been used as an excuse for whichever ruler controlled or was controlled by religious leaders to acquire more power or territory. Even the more recent Troubles in Ireland didn't happen because the Catholics in Eire and the Protestants in Ulster wanted to convert each other; it was because the Irish opposed the presence of a British "colony" in Ulster. With Brexit about to take Ulster out of the EU, that's going to flare up again.

Nevertheless, I doubt that religion in any or all of its forms will ever be eliminated, or that the desire of secular leaders to acquire power will ever go away either - even if religion did not exist.

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Apparently, an increasing number of Americans are having an adversion to... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #1
Good. smirkymonkey Oct 2019 #2
Evangelicals have given Christianity in general a bad name. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #3
Part and parcel Major Nikon Oct 2019 #5
That may be true, but the particular issue of the waning of Christian affiliation The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #9
The idea of separation of church and state has always been more of an illusion than reality Major Nikon Oct 2019 #11
More than that, at some points in history the Church has been more powerful The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #20
I agree w/ you. Too many preachers and the like have been charged w/ corruption and ... SWBTATTReg Oct 2019 #6
They sure have. dewsgirl Oct 2019 #8
Christians have given Christianity in general a bad name. trotsky Oct 2019 #17
There are essentially zero evangelicals in Ireland Voltaire2 Oct 2019 #19
Trump is responsible Prez Oct 2019 #4
Trump is merely a symptom... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #7
Trend started long before Trump. Voltaire2 Oct 2019 #14
No, he's just taking advantage of it. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2019 #15
This trend started long before the 2016 election. Mariana Oct 2019 #18
Ironically, that fact is able to do what no Christian ever could Downtown Hound Oct 2019 #10
We should practice Christianity just like Tump does? keithbvadu2 Oct 2019 #12
That's great news. 3Hotdogs Oct 2019 #13
Join us -- come over to the neutral gray side. nt eppur_se_muova Oct 2019 #16
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