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cliffside

(1,127 posts)
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:28 AM Jul 22

Shootings, Devastation, Hunger: Israel Fails to Address Gaza's Power Vacuum

Source: NYT

"Over the weekend, Israeli soldiers shot Palestinians near an Israeli-backed aid site and a U.N. convoy. Both episodes pointed to Israel’s refusal to allow new governance structures to emerge.

For a year and a half, experts have warned that Israel’s failure to plan for a power transition in Gaza would lead to anarchy, make it harder to deliver aid and stymie efforts to defeat Hamas.

A sequence of shootings in Gaza over the weekend — one near Gaza’s southern border, another at its northern edge — have highlighted the accuracy of those predictions.

.... That failure to find a solution has led to Israel’s growing diplomatic isolation. On Monday, 25 countries, including Britain, France and Japan, called Israel’s conduct “unacceptable” and demanded that Israel end the war immediately..."

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/21/world/middleeast/shootings-aid-gaza-analysis.html?unlocked_article_code=1.YU8.ZGx9.TVp6R-iXAEiM&smid=url-share



Full article at link.
26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Shootings, Devastation, Hunger: Israel Fails to Address Gaza's Power Vacuum (Original Post) cliffside Jul 22 OP
It is Hamas who has refused to allow any new governance structure. SunSeeker Jul 22 #1
Death camps iemanja Jul 22 #3
no. the issue is Hamas. stopdiggin Jul 22 #6
I suggest you do a bit of reading on current events iemanja Jul 22 #7
I have been following stopdiggin Jul 22 #12
What do you imagine Hamas could do now iemanja Jul 22 #15
surrender. turn themselves, and their stock of munitions and weapons, over .. stopdiggin Jul 22 #19
How would that change Israel's plans? iemanja Jul 22 #21
And until they do, it's perfectly fine to continue with the mass murders and starvation? AloeVera Jul 22 #18
Agree with you that many Palestinians are "subjects" or call them hostages, starving the "subjects" cliffside Jul 22 #22
On Hamas and cease fire proposals iemanja Jul 22 #8
Appreciate you posting the link, for some reason the thread does not advance in GD so posted it ... cliffside Jul 22 #24
so... myohmy2 Jul 22 #9
seems to be just fine as far as Hamas is concerned stopdiggin Jul 22 #11
c'mon... myohmy2 Jul 22 #16
Doesn't absolve Israel. It is responsible for the human acopalypse it created. AloeVera Jul 22 #20
How much power does Hamas really have at this point? fujiyamasan Jul 22 #4
They ambushed and killed 7 IDF soldiers in June. maxsolomon Jul 22 #13
Israel has created a situation where people will die en masse now. AloeVera Jul 22 #17
Yes, I'm still blaming Hamas. They started this war. They can agree to a cease fire at any time. nt SunSeeker Jul 22 #25
I see. N/T AloeVera Jul 22 #26
Israel has a plan iemanja Jul 22 #2
no way... myohmy2 Jul 22 #5
Israel planning for a power transition equals land grab. Beastly Boy Jul 22 #10
precisely! I caught that little gem too. "Power vacuum" ..... stopdiggin Jul 22 #14
How Netanyahu Prolonged the War in Gaza to Stay in Power cliffside Jul 22 #23

SunSeeker

(56,227 posts)
1. It is Hamas who has refused to allow any new governance structure.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:44 AM
Jul 22

Hamas insists it must maintain security control of Gaza as a core demand. It says it will fight the Palestinian Authority or any Arab government that tries to come in. That is why Hamas has been refusing the cease fire deals.

World pressure should be squarely on Hamas to accept a cease fire. Hamas is the bad guy here.

Free Palestine--from Hamas.

iemanja

(56,336 posts)
3. Death camps
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:26 AM
Jul 22

Starving people being shot at, plans to herd 2 million Gazans into death camps, from which Israel says they will not be allowed to leave alive, but you think the issue is a cease fire?

SMH

stopdiggin

(14,095 posts)
6. no. the issue is Hamas.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:13 AM
Jul 22

And as long as that entity refuses to cede power (and enact an enforceable cease fire) - Gaza remains in a state of war. Granted not a symmetrical war - but that does not change the fact that Hamas still plays a major role in the continuation of the war (and Palestinian suffering).

Many of us would like to pretend like the terrorists have suddenly disappeared. Be assured, they have not. And they are still a major issue.

stopdiggin

(14,095 posts)
12. I have been following
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:26 PM
Jul 22

And I still hold the viewpoint that - as long as Hamas clings to power (and their brutal methods and agenda) - this remains a two sided conflict. As I concede, it is not a symmetrical fight - but that does not change the fact that Hamas could change the landscape, for the conflict and their Palestinian subjects - tomorrow - if they chose to do so.

iemanja

(56,336 posts)
15. What do you imagine Hamas could do now
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:30 PM
Jul 22

To prompt the war cabinet to change its plans to slaughter 2 million people? To change it from killing them in what former Israeli PM Olmert calls concentration camps designed for ethnic cleaning?

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I assumed you were unaware of the death camps. I clearly made a serious error here.


stopdiggin

(14,095 posts)
19. surrender. turn themselves, and their stock of munitions and weapons, over ..
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 05:46 PM
Jul 22

this is the way other conflicts have ended. why no consideration for such an option here? bit of a blind spot? (or so it seems from this perspective)

iemanja

(56,336 posts)
21. How would that change Israel's plans?
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 08:48 PM
Jul 22

The New York Times article makes clear that Bibi backed away from cease fire agreements because the radical right would have tossed him out of government. Their goal is to see ALL Palestinians removed from Gaza, not to stop Hamas. It's to round up 2 million people into concentration camps.

After a year and a half of Israel's targeting civilians, I'd think you'd figure out this has little to nothing to do with Hamas. Your argument doesn't mesh with developments as their currently exist.

AloeVera

(3,435 posts)
18. And until they do, it's perfectly fine to continue with the mass murders and starvation?
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 05:33 PM
Jul 22

Until Hamas gives Israel everything it wants, it is free to continue the apocalyptic suffering?

People who want to ignore or skirt that critical question reveal to others that to them, Palestinians lives are secondary to Israel's objectives and if many more have to die, so be it. That's not OK.

cliffside

(1,127 posts)
22. Agree with you that many Palestinians are "subjects" or call them hostages, starving the "subjects"
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 08:53 PM
Jul 22

and shooting at them when trying to get food is not a good answer, maybe you agree ... or not.

cliffside

(1,127 posts)
24. Appreciate you posting the link, for some reason the thread does not advance in GD so posted it ...
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 09:18 PM
Jul 22

below in this thread.

stopdiggin

(14,095 posts)
11. seems to be just fine as far as Hamas is concerned
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:18 PM
Jul 22

Appear to be willing to cling to power down to the last baby - or drop of (either Palestinian or Israeli) blood

myohmy2

(3,603 posts)
16. c'mon...
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 04:13 PM
Jul 22

...who's doing the killing...?

...who's doing the dying...?

...I know, the devil made me do it...

...

AloeVera

(3,435 posts)
20. Doesn't absolve Israel. It is responsible for the human acopalypse it created.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 05:58 PM
Jul 22

It's not power they are clinging to, it is their LAND they cling to. They want Israel's full withdrawal. They know what happens when Israel "occupies" land. And didn't Israel just announce they will force all Gazans into a tiny area and then EXPEL them to another country?? And a poll found that that plan to expel is supported by 82% of Israeli Jews?WTF??

What does Hamas have to do with any of that? Why would Hamas agree to anything now, since it won't make any difference to what Israel is going to do? Of course this is just another sabotage of negotiations by Netanyahu so he can continue to raze Gaza to the ground, and "encourage" Gazans to leave if they want to live.

What inhumanity.

fujiyamasan

(513 posts)
4. How much power does Hamas really have at this point?
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:03 AM
Jul 22

Are there even any operational targets left at this point in Gaza? What is Israel protecting itself from now?

I’m not saying Hamas doesn’t have power or that they’re not a threat to Israel, but I doubt the Hamas that conducted the October 7th attacks is what exists now.

As someone that used to consider myself pro Israel, and believe they had an absolute right to retaliate for October 7th, it’s clear this has gone well beyond attacking terrorism. It’s about destroying Gaza’s people, it’s civilian infrastructure, and starving them, and making any surviving residents lives so miserable they are driven to flee.

I used to argue it’s not genocide, but maybe I’ll split hairs and just call it ethnic cleansing, because at the minimum that’s what has been going on for sometime now. Hell, Trump, Netanyahu and their ardent followers like Fetterman (well on Israel), advocate as much. Forced relocation is a policy goal for this Israeli government.

maxsolomon

(36,960 posts)
13. They ambushed and killed 7 IDF soldiers in June.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:31 PM
Jul 22

Hamas does retain operational capacity.

Certainly, enough to terrorize any Gazans who try to organize to negotiate with the IDF.

AloeVera

(3,435 posts)
17. Israel has created a situation where people will die en masse now.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 05:26 PM
Jul 22

FFS.

THIS IS GENOCIDE.

YOU ARE STILL BLAMING HAMAS?

WHO IS THE OCUPYING FORCE CONTROLLING NEAR ALL OF GAZA, WHO BLOCKS EVEN BABY FOOD, WHO FUNDS THE CRIMINAL GANGS WITH ISIS OR AL QUEDA TIES, WHO CREATED GHF, WHO IS HIRING BULLDOZER CONTRACTORS TO DEMOLISH HOMES, ON AND ON, WHO, WHO WHO??

PEOPLE ARE DROPPING ON THE STREETS AND IN THEIR HOMES FROM ORGAN FAILURE CAUSED BY STARVATION. A NUMBER OF B-A-B-I-E- S STARVED TO DEATH IN RECENT DAYS.

THERE ARE NO MORE EXCUSES! No more hasbara. This is apocalyptic and its fucking intentional. It must stop. We all have to agree, it must stop. Only Israel can stop it.

SunSeeker

(56,227 posts)
25. Yes, I'm still blaming Hamas. They started this war. They can agree to a cease fire at any time. nt
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 10:34 PM
Jul 22

myohmy2

(3,603 posts)
5. no way...
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:07 AM
Jul 22

...to turn this into an achievement...

...many ways to turn this into inhumanity...

...this will be remembered...

Beastly Boy

(13,165 posts)
10. Israel planning for a power transition equals land grab.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:17 PM
Jul 22

Last edited Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Israel not planning for a power transition = failure to address power vacuum.

Is there anything in the world that is not Israel's fault?

stopdiggin

(14,095 posts)
14. precisely! I caught that little gem too. "Power vacuum" .....
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:33 PM
Jul 22

Ummmmm?
Damned if you do - and damned if you don't ... 'Bout right?

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