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PeaceWave

(1,241 posts)
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:39 AM Jan 5

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (PeaceWave) on Mon Jan 20, 2025, 12:17 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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DFW

(57,007 posts)
1. VAT is government heroin, more addictive than crack cocaine. But there is one difference in the USA
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 03:22 AM
Jan 5

In the tradition of "keeping the federal government out of our business," a dubious phrase in most instances, every State has the right to impose (or not, as it sees fit) a state sales tax. This varies from state to state, and some states have none at all, preferring to draw needed revenue from other sources (and, not incidentally, shoppers from neighboring states that do have sales taxes, e.g. NH vs. MA). Some states prefer to have a state sales tax but not a state income tax (e.g. Texas).

But at the end of the day, it is the states, and not the federal government, who decide how high their state sales taxes are, and, importantly, what is subject to the tax, and what is not. This is not the case in the European countries.

The administration of a VAT is a vast, cumbersome bureaucracy in itself, with a vast enforcement apparatus necessary, and huge opportunities for fraud and corruption. Most European countries started out with a 10% national VAT. It keeps creeping upward, never downward, and has only been eliminated on items that were forced abroad or underground when imposed. Dealers in gold and gold coins, for example, who usually operate on a margin of between 1% and 5%, can't survive if they have to charge 19% tax on top of their sales. Business would simply migrate to a nearby country with no VAT on such items (i.e. Luxembourg or Switzerland). Indeed, exactly that happened a few decades ago, and the VAT imposing countries (Germany, NL, Austria, e.g.) quickly realized they were being stupid, losing both taxpaying businesses, jobs, and revenue, so they eliminated it again.

VAT is now mostly between 19% (Germany, for example) and 25% (Denmark, for example). It hits hardest, of course, those low-income people who can least afford it. In Germany, it is called Mehrwertsteuer, pretty much a literal translation of "value added tax." Many Germans refer to it cynically as "Märchensteuer" which translates out to "Fairy Tale Tax" since they see its benefits as fictitious.

As a side note--the German constitution forbids double taxation in Germany. It seems that some 90 years ago, a certain group here was unfairly disadvantaged by special taxes imposed upon them and not on others, and the post-war Germans wanted to make sure that their new nation would forever forbid that. When a wealth tax was proposed by the left (and labeled a "jealousy tax" by the right), their Supreme Court struck it down as a double taxation. However, as a revenue raising measure, the government imposed VAT at the gas pump. Not just on the gasoline, but also on the gasoline tax that constituted the greater part of the price paid by the consumer. Germans now pay VAT on another tax, therefore, a double taxation--clearly in violation of their own constitution. As fate would have it, a neighbor of ours here in Germany is a retired judge on the tax court. He is also a professor of tax law at the University of Bonn, and wrote his doctoral thesis on double taxation. I asked him if the tax-on-tax at the gas pump wasn't unconstitutional under German law? He said, "absolutely!" I asked why it was still standing? He asked me if I had a spare half million Euros to organize and mount the necessary class-action suit to bring it before the courts. I checked. I didn't. He said, neither did anyone else. He said that if it had come before him as a judge, he would have struck it down immediately. But it never did, and if it means an extra €13.28 twice a month out of your gas budget, are you going to go to court over it?

PeaceWave

(1,241 posts)
5. Great post. Americans need to understand what Trump is trying to do with their taxes.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 12:39 PM
Jan 5

dalton99a

(85,411 posts)
8. +1
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:20 PM
Jan 5

William769

(56,400 posts)
2. I got news for you. Value-Added Tax is already here.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 04:51 AM
Jan 5

Why is inflation down & food prices are up 28%?

DFW

(57,007 posts)
6. Not due to VAT
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 12:55 PM
Jan 5

The 28% increase in food prices is not due to some selective tax that goes to the federal government.

William769

(56,400 posts)
7. Depends on how you look at it
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:18 PM
Jan 5

It cost more for production, transportation, wholesale selling & so on. With the higher prices with what I mentioned means more taxes for the Government.

I guess I would call that a unexpected windfall for the Government.

DFW

(57,007 posts)
10. But most of those taxes collected are local
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:27 PM
Jan 5

The federal government is not grabbing 28% of what the grocery shopper pays at the supermarket cashier.

PeaceWave

(1,241 posts)
11. This could be due to collusion and/or inflation. It is not due to VAT. The U.S. has yet to implement a VAT.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:58 PM
Jan 5

William769

(56,400 posts)
12. My apologies for not using the correct wording.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 02:17 PM
Jan 5

I was trying to make a point on high food cost & went about it badly. I am far from perfect.

Once again my apologies.

Response to William769 (Reply #12)

multigraincracker

(34,584 posts)
3. I'd rather see a wealth tax.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 04:57 AM
Jan 5

Property taxes are a form of that. Sales taxes are regressive and fall more on the poor a middle class the rich buy stuff, but focus on building wealth after spending on their needs.

DFW

(57,007 posts)
9. I'd rather not.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 01:21 PM
Jan 5

I see it like Germany’s Heiner Geissler: as a “Neidsteuer,” or “jealousy tax.” It can only be imposed on that which is visible, ergo already taxed once. The reason it is unconstitutional in Germany is because they remember how it was applied during the Nazi era on Jews. “What? You still have something left? OK, we’ll fix that!” And who decided what was to be done with the extra wealth confiscated? Why, the ones doing the confiscation, of course! How convienient.

If a country’s government, with the consent of the governed, as the phrase goes, wants to raise the marginal tax rate on people earning a lot, or on unearned income, let them do it. But this “we’re coming to get you again, and we alone decide what we’re gonna do with what we take from you” stinks of what happened under the German National Socialists in the 1930s and 1940s. It didn’t end with the National Socialists (“Nazis” for short). Look at socialist Romania. Ceaușescu confiscated most of the country’s citizens’ wealth, too. Did he spend it on the people? No. They remained in abject poverty, and he kept it all for himself. I was called in by the post-1989 Romanian government a little over ten years ago to help evaluate some of Ceaușescu’s stash, and it was so vast that it would have taken over a month, which I didn’t have. It’s still there. They’re such hopeless bureaucrats that they still haven’t yet figured out how to dispose of it in a fair and efficient manner.

Mike 03

(17,764 posts)
4. Good thread! Kicking NT
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 06:27 AM
Jan 5

Jacson6

(957 posts)
13. They have been floating the VAT for decades.
Sun Jan 5, 2025, 02:20 PM
Jan 5

It would need a constitutional amendment where the politicos would tell the voters. We are going to raise the price on everything. I lived in a country with A VAT and it jacked up the price of everything by 15%.

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