Dress Codes - An unnecessary vestige of an exclusionary and discriminatory past or something that still has a purpose...

[PeaceWave]

I ask this question due to what recently happened at a prestigious New York chess tournament. I'm not sure that dress codes ever really had a legitimate place in civil society. Over the centuries, they have been used to exclude the poor and middle classes and to discriminate against racial and religious minorities. Today, a quarter of the way into the 21st century, it is apparently still okay in some circles to use dress codes to stifle competition, brilliance and joy. I find this disappointing.

Chess champion Magnus Carlsen disqualified from tournament for wearing jeans

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chess-champion-magnus-carlsen-disqualified-from-tournament-for-wearing-jeans/

I'm not sure how many of you follow chess. If you do, then you know that 34 year old Magnus Carlsen is a rock star in the world of competitive chess. This week, Carlsen was competing in New York in the World Blitz Chess Championship and the World Rapid Chess Championship. Carlsen won both tournaments in both 2022 and 2023. He has won the Blitz Chess Championship seven times and the Rapid Chess Championship five times in the past 10 years.

After playing several rounds of chess, Carlsen was confronted by tournament officials who informed him that he needed to remove his pants. Yes, you got that right. Tournament officials told Carlsen that the jeans he was wearing were "expressly prohibited" under the International Chess Federation's regulations for the event. They further informed him that he would be fined $200 and would need to change his clothes. Carlsen declined to do so on the spot but offered to change for the following day of the tournament. Tournament officials refused Carlsen's offer, at which point Carlsen said things "became a bit of a matter of principle." Carlsen was not permitted to play in the tournament's ninth round and he was disqualified from further participation. Carlsen said he would not appeal the decision.

A picture of Magnus Carlsen and his "expressly prohibited" jeans...

[drray23]

1. Carlsen used that as an excuse.

He is well aware of the rules. He was doing badly in this tournament and used it as an excuse to withdraw. He has done that before. It's especially true now that he and a few others have started a chess league competing with fide kinda like LIV vs PGA in golf.

[PeaceWave]

15. You have an axe to grind with the greatest chess player to ever walk the planet?

Are you a friend of Hans Niemann or something? Yeesh.

[ProfessorGAC]

2. Ambivalent

It's their tournament, so they make the rules. Don't want to follow them, don't enter the tournament.
But, it seems an odd thing for them to have such a code. Makes the whole affair silly.
I don't completely buy the "exclusionary" argument. I was watching Ken Burns' Baseball the other day. It was the period 1910 - 1920 and all the fans were wearing suits. But at that time, baseball was a working man's game. Yet, those "lower class" people owned & seemed comfortable in suits & dresses. Not sure a dress code us de facto evidence of exclusion.
I sub at one majority black junior high that has a code of dress. If anything, that code is a class leveler because everyone dresses the same, independent of their parents wherewithal.
So, I'm not opposed to dress codes, see how can they can have value, but this chess tournament seems a specious application of such a rule.

[dsc]

3. ludicrous

Those are perfectly fine pants for that outfit. And it took them 8 rounds to figure out he was wearing jeans? I will say the report of this I heard on NPR mentioned that he apparently said some words that weren't appropriate when he was confronted, and a fine of some sort for that would be reasonable, but this disqualification is absurd.

[jimfields33]

43. They make the rules. Doesn't matter how great they look.

They are unauthorized and he was very aware of the rules. Try again next year with proper clothes.

[dsc]

48. and it took them not one, or two, or three, but eight rounds to figure that out

that is my problem.

[jimfields33]

49. I agree. They should have disqualified him upon arrival.

Consistency is a must for all rules.

[Mosby]

71. They look horrible

Low rise skinny jeans makes his legs look 2 feet long.

Look at the difference between his legs and torso.

[Arazi]

4. There was a female chess master who refused to play in Saudi Arabia

Because she would have had to cover entirely in their stupid clothes and have a male “guardian” to leave the hotel iirc.

So I’m with her on ditching mandatory dress codes for everyone. She’d have had more leverage to push back against their draconian “rules” if the chess associations didn’t have dress codes in the first place

[jimfields33]

44. She did the right thing by dropping out.

Don’t follow the rules, don’t play.

[Arazi]

52. Or they could drop the outdated dress code

It’s as ridiculous as Saudi Arabia requiring her to wear their shrouds and have a male “guardian”

[Wonder Why]

5. Just follow the Golden Rule. He who has the gold, rules.

[Aristus]

6. They're not reasonable all across the board. But I wish more high-end restaurants

had them.

I know how snotty this sounds, but I’m tired of taking my wife out for a nice meal at a fine-dining establishment, where we both get dressed up and make an event out of it, and there are guys in there wearing shorts, tee-shirts, flip-flops, and backwards baseball caps (worn indoors and right there at the table, as if they had never received even the most basic lessons in good manners and hat-wearing etiquette).

I like to think of myself as a very egalitarian person. But if you can afford to eat at a nice restaurant, you can afford to dress for the occasion. Not to mention, dudebro, nobody wants to see your hairy, ugly talons when they’re trying to enjoy a nice meal.

Restaurants should bring back dress codes. And if alphabro doesn’t like it, he can eat somewhere else.

[Journeyman]

7. I'm with you there . . .

I didn't take my children with me to fancy restaurants, as I didn't want to intrude upon the other guests' enjoyment of their meal. And in those years when I smoked, I never lit up in a restaurant of any sort, out of consideration of my fellow patron's comfort and pleasure in their food. Nothing ruins food quicker than noxious smoke wafting across the table. And while I have no issues with people getting food at a taco stand on the beach without a shirt on or in shorts and sandals, I do wish they'd show a modicum of grace when dining at nicer, sit down restaurants. As with the food, it's all in the presentation . . .

[Aristus]

8. In all of the years of my childhood, back when smoking was permitted in restaurants

and the endless clouds of smoke drifted over into the non-smoking section where my non-smoking family was seated, it never occurred to me that there might be smokers present who chose, out of courtesy, not to light up.

Please allow me to offer my thanks for your superb manners and considerate nature.

[wackadoo wabbit]

20. Why do you care what other people wear?

If you want to make it a night on the town and dress up, then do it! Godspeed.

If other people want to dress down, then let them. It doesn't affect you or the enjoyable time you're having.

[Aristus]

23. I'm not sure I agree 100%. Atmosphere counts for a lot on a night out.

It’s not something tangible that one can request and expect to pay for specifically. But one knows what it is, and what kind to expect when one goes there.

If I were to stand in the middle of a sports bar and recite Shakespearean sonnets out loud, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but it would no doubt spoil the good time of at least some of the people trying to watch the game.

Reading the room is an important part of social awareness for a reason.

[Ms. Toad]

46. Making Intrusive sounds is very different than

Simply not wearing what you believe is appropriate attire.

Short of wearing clothing that exposes breasts, butt cracks, genitals, or even underwear, I can't imagine someone else's attire influencing my enjoyment is a night out.

[Aristus]

51. Breasts, butt cracks, genitals, and underwear are your bridges too far.

We all have them. I posted mine.

It all goes back to atmosphere. Which comprises sight, sound, smell, etc. All of the sensory experiences that can make a night out wonderful or terrible.

[Lulu KC]

32. Backwards baseball caps

My incredibly sweet and tolerant husband will leave a restaurant if he sees one.

[Aristus]

60. I hate the fact that I'm becoming the kind of cranky old guy I never wanted to be.

But seriously, if a guy is older than his mid-twenties or so, a backwards baseball cap is just pathetic and idiotic.

And take off your hat indoors and definitely at the table. If one does not know how to wear a hat, maybe one shouldn’t wear a hat.

[CrispyQ]

57. There are times & places where it's just respectful to take a bit of care with your dress & appearance

but I guess that's last century thinking.

I went to a wedding where two guests came dressed in their biking shorts & shoes, & all hot & sweaty cuz they'd just done a 100-mile bike ride & didn't have time to stop at home first. They couldn't have gone for a 50-mile ride? I felt sorry for the people they squeezed in beside. My friend who goes to church said same thing happens in the summer, people come in sweaty from running or riding & just plop down next to you. She said in the spring, two hikers came in, their boots & bottoms of their pants caked in mud & one flaked it off during the sermon & left a mess on the church floor. SMDH

[Skittles]

63. going to court

I don't care if it is for just a traffic offense, I think you should show respect and dress nicely.

And for a wedding, SAME. SHOW SOME RESPECT!!!

[GoneOffShore]

72. We recently went to Les Grands Buffets, in Narbonne. A restaurant dedicated to Escoffier's recipes

Their dress policy is no sports gear, hats (for men), no flipflops or pool shoes, etc. Bermuda shorts are allowed. Their luncheon dress code is fairly relaxed and dinner is more formal.
When they first opened they didn't allow children under 6, but that has changed.

The restaurant was recently featured in both the New Yorker and NYTimes. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/les-grands-buffets-and-the-art-of-all-you-can-eat


We had to wait 4 months for a reservation. Our group is already planning to go again.

?si=HIc9cbth3AjyryFa

[cachukis]

9. You cannot fail, tastefully, by overdressing.

You can display your insouciance, on the other hand, by underdressing.

[PeaceWave]

10. or by misspelling the word.

[cachukis]

13. Thanks. I stand corrected.

[lapucelle]

11. "Beware of any enterprise the requires new clothes." - Henry David Thoreau N/T

[Aristus]

24. Said the guy who demonstrated his embrace of the simple life

while living on someone else’s land, and getting his mother to do his laundry.

[lapucelle]

25. Is the part about the laundry true?

[Lulu KC]

33. Laundry AND brought meals!

I want that life!

[lapucelle]

37. Thoreau seems to have a lot in common with modern RW keyboard warriors.

[SharonClark]

12. I had a similar conversation just yesterday.

I was shopping at Target and there was a woman who I thought was a shopper until I went to check out and she was behind the register. I was gob smacked by her ripped jeans, uncombed hair, and her messy wrinkly top. She didn’t look clean.

I’ve seen people better dressed when they go to change their oil. She was not a good representative of the Target brand.

[Arazi]

14. Every retail worker gets a lot of leeway from me right now

They’re still in living hell trying to deal with the holiday craziness.

I’m just glad they’re there at all tbh. Bet that cashier has been working some loooonnngg and terrible shifts 😞

[Mariana]

16. Minimum wage begets minimum effort.

If Target wants people who are good representatives of the Target brand, they can raise their wages.

[Lulu KC]

34. Actually, I think Target pays decently

They're not like WalMart.

(I'm not commenting on the clothing thing here--just a Target fan from Minnesota. Go, Target!)

[CrispyQ]

58. "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich

Man, what an eye-opener that book was!! I cried reading the account of the Walmart worker who was hoping a particular blouse would go on sale so she could buy it to have a backup shirt to wear for work. She was spending her money to have the right colored attire for her shitty job at Walmart & was so on the edge financially she needed to save every bit. Holy fuck do I hate Donald Trump & his billionaire assholes.

[Lars39]

29. She may be one of the homeless working poor.

[applegrove]

17. Went to visit my grandmother's family in the old villages

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2024, 12:26 AM - Edit history (2)

in Pictou County, Nova Scotia. My grandmother was in her late 80s. She had been a farmer, a country doctor's wife and a nurse. People put on at 'At Home' for her where everyone in the community came to say hi. It was like a tea we thought. So my sister and I put on our best cocktail/tea dresses with flowers on them. We had on fancy "flats" shoes. There was some time before the event so my sister and I decided to go for a walk along the rural highway..... like a couple of urban idiots from a yuppie family. One of my grandmother's nieces recognized it must be us on the highway and got us to come into their house to meet 2nd cousins. They were lovely. Interested if we were in university. We tried to figure out the four generations in their family. Then we went to the 'At Home'. We were so overdressed. People were lovely and adored my grandmother. Most of them were delivered by my grandfather, a country doctor. Basically fashion and formal dress is a con meant to sell new clothes every year. There is something called the colour lobby that changes the colour of cars and household appliances every year, just like the designers in fashion. It is a way to make money. The people we met that day looked great without any of the high tea fashion my sister and I indulged in. They were better than all our nonsense.

That being said I love fashion. I loved watching Sex and The City and fashion runway shows. Some fashion truly is art.

[Kelen]

18. ...

[MichMan]

19. What I find really stupid is that Men and Women compete separately in major Chess tournaments

In a skill based competition, with no physical advantages of any kind, why would the Chess organizations cling to separating Men and Women by gender?

[WestMichRad]

53. It's because men's egos can't handle...

… being beaten by women.

[The Mouth]

62. Man, I remember getting whupped by a 12 year old girl (best friend's little sister)

mercilessly, and with a bunch of people watching. This was about 50 years ago. She put me down like a sick puppy, I was 16.

If I had my self-worth attached to my chess ability I would really have been devastated back then.

Now? I can't think of anything from playing bass to writing poetry to long distance running that girls young enough to be a granddaughter couldn't obliterate me at, and I don't care.

[Johnny2X2X]

73. Opportunities

Chess has historically offered less opportunities to women so there are no current women players who would be in the top 100 players in the world.

So currently, having women’s only tournaments is the only avenue for women to compete. Women can compete in the men’s tournaments if they qualify or get a special invite, but they simply aren’t competitive with the top 50 male players who are at these events on the regular.

Women’s chess is growing though and there are more and more elite women players, it’s just a matter of time before some of them will start to challenge for the big titles IMO. But until then, women’s only tourneys are a good way for women to compete and gain sponsorships.

Chess is a weird sport. Only the top 25 or so players can make a living playing chess. Anyone else making a living off chess is streaming to make money.

[MichMan]

74. Sorry, if they aren't skilled enough to compete then they need to try harder.

There are all kinds of chess tournaments all over the world for players that have lesser skills. There are zero reasons why gender should have anything to do with the ability to play chess at any level. Zero.

My main interest in sports is motorsports. From the age of 5 years old, men and women compete head to head against each other in every possible type of racing that there is. Because we understand that the race car doesn't have any idea on the gender of whomever is holding the steering wheel.

[yardwork]

22. That is "dressed up" for a 34 year old.

That is the style right now. Personally, I find it odd. Everything looks too tight but that's the look now.

[Freddie]

30. Men in tight clothes

For fashion (not because they gained a few pounds) I’ll never understand. One of my favorite shows all the men wear business suits a size too small. Why? Can’t be comfortable.

[Lulu KC]

35. Agreed!

And now it's extending to women's clothing. "Shrunken" sweaters. I think they're just using less materials and making it a fashion. Late stage capitalism fashion. Same with no longer putting buttons on cardigan sweaters.

[yardwork]

38. It's been like that for almost ten years.

It looks uncomfortable. I ask my 30-something sons if they don't need new clothes that fit and they get mad at me.

[Lulu KC]

40. Yes!

I went to my nephew's wedding about 10 years ago and I thought, "What? Did they all put their suits in the dryer?"

Also, men's shirts without pockets. What? Where do they keep their slide rules and pocket protectors?

[yardwork]

45. Kids these days!

[Maeve]

26. Our Board of Elections finally decided poll workers can wear jeans

"Look neat" is about as firm a ruling as I think fair for most cases, but some can't get that message. Used to see high school girls getting out of their parents' cars wearing clothes that would distract constantly or guys with torn or nasty messaged slogans....

In this particular case? Please, the ICF needs to stop taking itself so seriously!

[walkingman]

27. Accept it - MAGA has driven us back to the 1950s - it is more obvious every day.

[ZDU]

28. Gender

I suppose individuals must conform to gender roles too

[bucolic_frolic]

31. Casual Friday

should be universal.

Dress codes were destroyed by Fetterman and tattoos.

[IL Dem]

39. And piercings all over the face!

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2024, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Then comes the whining about being unable to get a job.

[Lulu KC]

36. This does seem ridiculous BUT

whenever I see Gym Jordan I think "PUT ON YOUR JACKET, BOZO!" Every single time.

[Abolishinist]

64. It's not just the jacket,

it's that yellow polyester tie. Polyester or synthetic fibers should never be an option

Which tie fabric is the right one?
When selecting the material, the season and the climate should always be taken into account. While warmer ties made of wool and cashmere are more suitable on cold autumn and winter days and can be worn to thicker jackets of, for instance, tweed, light ties made of silk or linen should be better worn in the warmer months in spring and summer and can combined perfectly to thinner cotton or linen jackets. In summery colors, they do not only spread good mood, but also provide a refreshing spot of color in the outfit.

[Lulu KC]

67. Yes--and while we're on it--

It's never tied right! It's ASKEW!

(You'd never know it to look at me, but I am a fashion critic.:laughing

[lapfog_1]

41. I played a *lot* of competitive Chess as a high school kid

right up until a Russian grandmaster, while playing 24 simultaneous games at a demonstration, played me to a draw.

I never wore anything but jeans. It was the 70s... they might have been bell bottoms.

No one ever suggested that I put on anything else. Most all the tournaments I played were both USCF and FIDE rated events.

and... it was a goddam speed chess event... what we used to do the hallways outside the rated tournament for fun and laughter.

[Jilly_in_VA]

42. Dress codes are stupid

I hated them in high school and I hate them today. After I left my last hospital they instituted a dress code and people had to get rid of most of their scrubs---anything that wasn't navy or white. And they didn't even put in a clothing allowance. That's just stupid. Their "reasoning" was: "so everyone will know who is nursing staff". Housekeeping etc. were color coded differently.

The first hospital I worked at as a traveler was trying to do the same thing. However, they were unionized and the union was just about 100% against it, partially for economic reasons and partially for personal reasons. I never found out what happened there because I left before the vote, but I'm betting the nurses won that one.

Some high school, I want to say it was Evanston or Waukegan, IL, dispensed with dress codes entirely except to say that the body had to be covered from the armpits to the thighs, both sexes, and shoes of some kind had to be worn. It saved a lot of trouble. There were apparently some weird outfits worn in the first few weeks, kind of testing the limits, and then things settled down. I'm for that. People are basically not stupid if given a reasonable limit.

[yardwork]

47. Color coding all the staff reminds me of Brave New World.

[MineralMan]

50. "No Blue Jeans in the Rainbow Room!" - How I broke the dress code.

In the 1990s, I was a more or less prominent software reviewer for one of the two main PC-oriented magazines. I was in NYC to attend PC Expo, one of the larger computer trade shows in the country - slightly smaller than COMDEX. As always, I had an invitation to Microsoft's press party, which was held at the famous Rainbow Room at Rockefeller Center. Microsoft and I had an uneasy relationship, since I frequently reviewed Microsoft Word and the rest of the Office Suite. At the time, my review and the one in the other main computer magazine were reasonably important to Microsoft.

So, I showed up at the Rainbow Room elevator with about half a dozen other journalists. I was in my personal uniform of the time, blue jeans, Nike shoes, a nice button-down shirt and tie, and a wool tweed sports coat. A couple of the other writers were in what was basically the same outfit. We walked up to the elevator.

At the elevator, the Rainbow Room bouncer was there. "No blue jeans in the Rainbow Room," he said as I approached the elevator. I was not aware of the Rainbow Room's famous dress code until that moment. I'm not a New Yorker, nor am I someone who visits such establishments. I was surprised.

"Are you sure?" I asked. "No blue jeans in the Rainbow Room," the guy repeated.

I said, "It's a private party hosted by Microsoft. Maybe you want to call up and check on your rule. I have this invitation," as I showed it to him.

"No blue jeans in the Rainbow Room!"

"Please call upstairs. Give them my name."

The call was made. The elevator door was opened. We all went up to the Rainbow Room, jeans and all.

I'm not a fan of dress codes. Never have been. I don't like them one bit.

[getagrip_already]

54. Seems counter-productive.....

Tournies like these depend on attracting the top caliber players. Who cares who wins if all you have are second tier players?

If players start avoiding a particular event, it will hurt both ad dollars and sponsors.

Something tells me they will quietly back down on rules off camera.

[WestMichRad]

55. Someone should make dress pants with blue denim.

See how that flies with the uppity snobs!

[CoopersDad]

56. Next year he should wear a skirt and top, pantsuit, or bridal gown.

Unless the rules exclude women and women's clothing.

[MichMan]

59. Irish fighter Conor McGregor's pinstripe suit

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

61. Yep, same problem as mentioned earlier. It looks like it shrunk in the dryer.

But I'm guessing he had it tailored that way. I think it would be very uncomfortable.

[obamanut2012]

69. You mean rapist and abuser

[Abolishinist]

65. I want a pair of the shoes that can be seen at :33

Murray Head knows how to dress!

[alarimer]

66. Mostly they're snobby.

But it depends on the context. In court? Yes, shorts are not appropriate. On the Senate floor? Yes, no one should dress like John Fetterman.

I would never work in a field that required me to wear a dress or heels. Nope, not gonna fucking do it. EVER.

[Patton French]

68. How did he not know the rules?

NT

[BannonsLiver]

70. Americans are the most sloppily dressed people in the world.

Sweat pants, yoga pants that look like people have been poured into them, t-shirts. I don’t even own a tie. If dress codes are still a thing it’s a shrinking island.